I'm kinda iffy on Adam Hughes, sometimes his art isn't that bad, other times it is clearly objectifying.
However, this really pisses me off:

Clearly he doesn't understand why so many people are upset at Turner's latest image (or Power Girl's portrayal period). There are occasions when saying "Uhm, the entire concept is unrealistic, why are you focusing on this?" For example, being upset that certain dinosaur's from various "-assic" periods are being mixed together for an animated movie. Unless the studio says "based on a true story" there's not much to balk at.
This is entirely different, this is a portrayal of a female character; this is also a cumulation of portrayals of women in comics in general. This isn't combining two dinosaurs that were separated by millions of years in time, this is about portrayal of women. Do images like this cause men to sexually harass or assault women? No. Do they cause sexism and misogyny on a grand scale? No. Our society has that already from thousands of years of oppressing and objectifying women. We're only now starting to move beyond it, but it's clear women and men are not on entirely equal footing. Certainly, reducing cheesecake covers like Turner's won't change things around, but it WILL help.
This is one thing so many guys just can't (or won't) get. I hate to tote out the phrase "male privilege" since it is used frequently and often gets the guys who really do need to listen to just ignore it. However it IS. There are quite a few guys who do understand it, at least to a certain degree. However, since Turner is still getting work (and not changing how he does it), along with the myriad of other artists who do cheesecake covers and art in general.
This IS objectifying. There is an argument that the male characters are just as unrealistic. This is true, but in a different context. Male characters in comics are often unrealistic in their physical look, but they are rarely OBJECTIFIED. Objectification is the issue here, not just the unrealistic nature of the cover. The unrealistic nature contributes to the objectification. The cover is clearly unrealistic, but if that were the only issue, it is very unlikely many people would be upset about it. It's because Power Girl is objectified and objectified so blatantly that has people upset.
Both men and women are objectified in daily life, however, there are few who will argue that men are more objectified than women. It's very clear on TV, movies, ads, etc that women are objectified significantly more than men. This happens in every day life, as well. For example, a man came into the comic shop I work at and the first thing he commented on was my attractiveness. It wasn't for another full half hour before he even asked if I liked comics. (Which is another thing entirely, but I'll get into that some other time) That's just one instance from one woman. There are over three billion women on this planet and it is VERY unlikely that any of them will go through life without being objectified by a strange man. For the three billion men? Yeah, some of them will, but not to the extent women are.
So what does all of this have to do with the one lone image by Michael Turner? Or at the very most the amount of cheesecake/objectification in comic books at large? No, they aren't the deciding factor in the cultural objectification of women, but they CERTAINLY don't help. I'm not advocating censorship; most certainly not. What I am advocating is social awareness of the issue; that objectification in and of itself is not a positive thing. It's not an entirely negative thing either; it's human nature and as long as it's equal and held in check, it isn't anything more than people thinking "oh, she/he's hot!" On the scale that it is though, it is negative, and discounts the feelings of over half of the population. Not every woman will agree with what I'm saying, but to repeatedly put something like that unapologetically out there is saying "This is for the men, I don't much care what the women think." (which is of course, assuming all men are boob-obsessed...)
So no, AH!, this isn't about realism, or the lack thereof. This is about something that is a real issue in society today, an issue that affects over half the population. Turner's image is just a very small contributor to this problem, but it does contribute. As trite as it may sound, even little things can cause large ripples. That's all I'd like Turner, Hughes, and others to be conscious of.
However, this really pisses me off:
Clearly he doesn't understand why so many people are upset at Turner's latest image (or Power Girl's portrayal period). There are occasions when saying "Uhm, the entire concept is unrealistic, why are you focusing on this?" For example, being upset that certain dinosaur's from various "-assic" periods are being mixed together for an animated movie. Unless the studio says "based on a true story" there's not much to balk at.
This is entirely different, this is a portrayal of a female character; this is also a cumulation of portrayals of women in comics in general. This isn't combining two dinosaurs that were separated by millions of years in time, this is about portrayal of women. Do images like this cause men to sexually harass or assault women? No. Do they cause sexism and misogyny on a grand scale? No. Our society has that already from thousands of years of oppressing and objectifying women. We're only now starting to move beyond it, but it's clear women and men are not on entirely equal footing. Certainly, reducing cheesecake covers like Turner's won't change things around, but it WILL help.
This is one thing so many guys just can't (or won't) get. I hate to tote out the phrase "male privilege" since it is used frequently and often gets the guys who really do need to listen to just ignore it. However it IS. There are quite a few guys who do understand it, at least to a certain degree. However, since Turner is still getting work (and not changing how he does it), along with the myriad of other artists who do cheesecake covers and art in general.
This IS objectifying. There is an argument that the male characters are just as unrealistic. This is true, but in a different context. Male characters in comics are often unrealistic in their physical look, but they are rarely OBJECTIFIED. Objectification is the issue here, not just the unrealistic nature of the cover. The unrealistic nature contributes to the objectification. The cover is clearly unrealistic, but if that were the only issue, it is very unlikely many people would be upset about it. It's because Power Girl is objectified and objectified so blatantly that has people upset.
Both men and women are objectified in daily life, however, there are few who will argue that men are more objectified than women. It's very clear on TV, movies, ads, etc that women are objectified significantly more than men. This happens in every day life, as well. For example, a man came into the comic shop I work at and the first thing he commented on was my attractiveness. It wasn't for another full half hour before he even asked if I liked comics. (Which is another thing entirely, but I'll get into that some other time) That's just one instance from one woman. There are over three billion women on this planet and it is VERY unlikely that any of them will go through life without being objectified by a strange man. For the three billion men? Yeah, some of them will, but not to the extent women are.
So what does all of this have to do with the one lone image by Michael Turner? Or at the very most the amount of cheesecake/objectification in comic books at large? No, they aren't the deciding factor in the cultural objectification of women, but they CERTAINLY don't help. I'm not advocating censorship; most certainly not. What I am advocating is social awareness of the issue; that objectification in and of itself is not a positive thing. It's not an entirely negative thing either; it's human nature and as long as it's equal and held in check, it isn't anything more than people thinking "oh, she/he's hot!" On the scale that it is though, it is negative, and discounts the feelings of over half of the population. Not every woman will agree with what I'm saying, but to repeatedly put something like that unapologetically out there is saying "This is for the men, I don't much care what the women think." (which is of course, assuming all men are boob-obsessed...)
So no, AH!, this isn't about realism, or the lack thereof. This is about something that is a real issue in society today, an issue that affects over half the population. Turner's image is just a very small contributor to this problem, but it does contribute. As trite as it may sound, even little things can cause large ripples. That's all I'd like Turner, Hughes, and others to be conscious of.
- Mood:
pissed off

Comments
That picture, and especially Turner's, make me feel slightly nauseous, not inspired or turned on. And I like boobs!
This picture was around LONG before the Turner fiasco, IIRC. It's also not the first where he's poked fun at people's fixation on Kara's chest.
Don't tear Hughes a new one for something Turner did, any more than you would want someone to tear into you for something another blogger who ostensibly had the same basic views as you did.
I think Hughes DOES understand, as many blogs seem to imply that his figures have grace. They have LIFE behind their eyes (as opposed to Turner's blank-stare poses), and the cheesecake is mixed with fun, as it were.
As much as I despise Turner's newest image, I can't blame Hughes for it, because I think the two come from totally different worlds -- and the fact that I think Hughes at least understands basic anatomy :)
Take it and run. Keep fighting the good fight.
Earl Allison
Hughes himself is only the focal point of this due to the above image; even then it's not just about him, it's about SO many of the artists, writers, and fans who really don't fully understand the problem. Hughes' piece, to me, is the perfect representation of that.
Answer: Well, let's see. Oh, right, woman can now basically do everything, every job, and have very stringent laws and guidelines to protect them from being harassed. The way you put it, it almost sounds like women are still being hired only as secretaries, nurses, and maids.
Also, again, you have to take into account that this is all comics, a medium aimed domineeringly at males. Sure, the power-fantasies presented by cape books snags a lot, but beautiful women that epitomize so much of what they see as the ideal woman (not just in terms of physique, but also in personality [i.e. feisty, witty, and nurturing to name a few]) draw in more. Sure, I probably just opened the "ZOMG EXPLOITATION OF A STEREOTYPE OF WOMEN" can of worms, but not like it wouldn't have come up eventually.
Uh, no. This blog is for me to express how I feel about certain things.
"Answer: Well, let's see. Oh, right, woman can now basically do everything, every job, and have very stringent laws and guidelines to protect them from being harassed. The way you put it, it almost sounds like women are still being hired only as secretaries, nurses, and maids."
I never said, nor did I imply that "women are still being hired only as secretaries, nurses, and maids". If you think everything is equal in the workplace, however, you're sadly mistaken. This applies to more than just gender, it applies to race, religion and sexual orientation.
"Also, again, you have to take into account that this is all comics, a medium aimed domineeringly at males."
When does that ever excuse things? "You'll have to excuse this publication for its [racism/sexism/religious stereotyping], it's aimed at [race/gender/religious group]."
Short answer: It doesn't.
You want to know something else? I'm tired of people like you acting like women are so much better than men. That constant 'Help! Help! I'm being opressed!' crap doesn't fly with me. Women objectify men just as much. Why do you think Chippendale's exisists?
Second, I never once said women are better than women, you drew that conclusion. In media, however, women are objectified much more than men. The porn industry for straight men makes considerably more than for straight women. As do strip clubs. Even in public there is more objectification. How many men do you know are told from a young age to be afraid to walk out in public at night for fear of being sexually harassed or raped?
Another picture by Adam Hughes-- I think you'll find it very pertinent to your discussion.
Anyway, about objectification... you raise an interesting point, thought perhaps indirectly. Not that women are objectified in comics-- that's pretty easy to see, though of all the characters to choose, Power Girl seems a little odd. PG has actually been an interesting vessel for writers to explore some of the issues of female image; in one comic, she comments that the hole in her costume isn't because she likes to show off skin, but because she's never quite figured out what her emblem should be (and thereby, in a larger sense, a comment on how her own sexuality has become a shell for her to hide in as she tries to figure out who she really wants to be.)
...well, maybe that's stretching it too far, but the point is, at least Power Girl's bosom actually has a certain impact on her character.
I mean, take Black Cat or Witchblade. Women just as remarkably endowed, and even more oversexed, but nothing comes of it. They could be flat as a board, midgits, dragons... anything, really, and it wouldn't affect their characters or stories. They're courtesy breasts and nothing else. That's objectification of women, CEG.
But that indirect point you raise-- what I mean by that is, what about discrimination shown in comics to other characters? So women are sexual objects? What about the men? What about non-gender discriminations? It's interesting to ponder.
No matter how many times I acknowledge "yes, men objectify women" you will never ever acknowledge that women objectify men to the same degree. When you do acknowledge it, you qualify your acknoweldgement by saying, "Well, men aren't as objectified as women are." While a clever ploy to undermine a valid argument, it's not true. There are male strip clubs, male models, the way men are portrayed movies, the way men are portrayed in comics, etc. etc. etc. ALL of which objectify men. These mediums set up an ideal and a general belief as to how men should look and act and what women will find generally attractive. Moreover, these ideals of attractive men are held up as heroes, and unattractive men are portrayed as comic relief or villains. Not a single man I know has the Greek like physique portrayed in comics.
It's funny, as I write this I think I should stop. Not because I'm wrong but because I know this falls on deaf ears. "Why expend the effort?" I ask myself. I have had this discussion with women like you before, and you're all so wrapped up in your own little world of "men bad, women good." You refuse to even acknowledge that the way male comic book heroes are drawn may be an exaggeration, an objectification of the male form, and that it may make some men feel uncomfortable. No, if this is even suggested it's either treated as an exception to the "typical male ego" or it's totally ignored. You'd probably respond with something that basically boils down to something like "these are the personification of male egos not the objectification of men." That's just frustrating. That's essentially saying Turner's Power Girl isn't objectification, but a personification of womanhood. The whole concept is offensive and stupid.
When that Power Girl cover came out, to be truthful, I was totally apathetic towards it. I didn’t give two flying shits about it until the “controversy.” My generally philosophy is to live and let live unless confronted with profound stupid. Which are what this entire “controversy” and the mentality behind it are. I’m not misogynist because of the way women are portrayed in the media, I’m misogynist because of this cliché attitude and the fact that every woman I’ve ever known has chosen her mate based entirely on the objectification of that mate. (Read: how they look, how much they make, or how much power they have.)
If you had met me 4 or 5 years ago, I would’ve been gung ho on your side. But I’ve since been exposed to the truth of human nature. The truth is: women, no matter how much they hem and haw, aren’t any more or less special than men, and men aren’t any better or worse than women. You claim to want equality, yet at every turn you’ll imply how stupid men are generally, and how hurt and oppressed women are. Get off your goddamn high horse. If you want true oppression, go to Iran. Until then, please please please get over it. It’s just a drawing. You don't have to look at it, you don't have to post it in your journals.
P.S. Just to give you an idea of how cliche your rantings are, I actually had to check your user info to make sure I wasn't talking to the same person.
And speaking of cliche, check the several anonymous responses above you, then get back to me.
I also love how you ignore the way men are objectified just as blatantly in the media. Oh, you pretend to address the issue, but you don't actually, because you approach it in the exact same way you approach objectifying women, when it's done in two completely different ways. Men are very rarely reduced to SEXUAL objects in comic books, because not very many women read them, and those that do tend to be shrill harpies. But men are reduced to objects of violence. Look at the Punisher, or GI Joe, or even Captain America-whom I love greatly. Big, impossibly ripped chests, impossible asskicking abilities, they are to young boys what power girl is to young girls.
The difference being that the camp that freaks out over these sorts of things is considerably smaller than on the other end of the gender divide. Why this is I really couldn't say, but if forced to guess I would say that it's probably because men are not riding the tail end of an equality movement that, in order to put themselves int he proper positions, overreacted and went nuts over the smallest possible slight against their gender.
And I'm extremely confused why you're giving Power Girl hell when there's another version of Supergirl floating around who is anorexic-thin and a complete and utter tramp.
Yeah, already acknowledged awhile ago.
As for the rest, I've already responded to most of it, and Power Girl is just the current focus. It is pretty illogical to just assume that Power Girl is the only character that upsets me in comics.
not a really big comic fan so I don't know.
As for her costume, you've obviously never seen the sad "I was hoping I could come up with a symbol to fill the hole, but I never did" pages from her mini-series.
Power Girl isn't an object. She's a character with depth, that just happens to have larger-then-normal breasts, and that ain't her fault.
Now, you want objectified women, just look at Jim Balent's Tarot series. Now THAT's objectified.
PG is a character with depth, but because of her looks, she's often turned into something for male readers to drool over -- character be damned. The Turner cover is a good example.
Way to go. Keep throwing it out there until it sticks. It's not about characters being sexy, it's about one half of the characters being big important heroes and half of them being unimportant fuck-toys. Thank you.
Keep fighting the good fight.
If it helps any, I agree with you that the Turner looks in bad taste, tho I blame his lack of skill on that. It looks like he slapped big boobs on a normal girl...
Other than that, good show.
Also, I'm female. I've been objectified. And I always try to react in the same way I think Power Girl would. If she doesn't take that kind of crap, I don't have to either.
But all this whining about "OMG male heroes are so idealized they've become unattainable role models! That's JUST as bad as female heroes being reduced to wank material!" Or the "I as a guy don't see the problem, so clearly YOU'RE overreacting" bullshit? Come on, people, be a little more original at least.
Just want you to know that you've got a lot of agreement behind you, and I hope you don't let that get drowned out by the whiners who have a knee-jerk reaction to flame anyone who dares impugn their precious male privilege.